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Wednesday, February 8, 2023

Ohio companies come out of the woodwork to offer travel cash to employees choosing abortions: Today in Ohio

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CLEVELAND, Ohio — Some of Ohio’s largest employers are already pledging to pay for travel if employees choose to leave the state for an abortion, which many would now have to do for abortions because of Ohio’s “heartbeat” bill. 

We’re talking about how Kroger, JPMorgan & Chase, Amazon, and Giant Eagle have announced plans to cover travel costs on Today in Ohio.

Listen online here.

Editor Chris Quinn hosts our daily half-hour news podcast, with impact editor Leila Atassi, editorial board member Lisa Garvin and content director Laura Johnston.

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Read the automated transcript below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it contains many errors and misspellings.

Chris: [00:00:00] We’re wondering if we’re going to hear Jim Jordan’s name in the surprise hearing of the January 6th committee today, the white house official who talked to everybody about pardons will be testifying according to the associated press. Maybe we’ll be talking about. That tomorrow on today in Ohio, the news podcast discussion from cleveland.com and the plain dealer.

I’m Chris Gwen. I am here with Lisa Garvin, Courtney Affy and Leila Tossi. It’s a Tuesday, which is loaded with news, which is a rarity. So let’s dig in our Ohio employers stepping up to pay for employees to travel to other states. If they choose to have abortions. Lisa, we see a lot of them.

Lisa: yeah, some of Ohio’s biggest employers representing at least 150,000 workers across the state have said that they will reimburse people for travel expenses.

If they go out of state to get an abortion procedure. [00:01:00] As you know, the heartbeat bill in Ohio is now in effect after sitting in limbo for two years. Women past six weeks will have to travel out of state for procedures. So among the biggest employers, the number three employer in Ohio Kroger, Amazon is number four, JP Morgan and chase is number 10.

Giant Eagle is like the 12th largest employer in the state. They have all said that they will, you know, Reimburse for benefits. Kroger said that their benefits do include medical travel for other treatments, and they will reimburse up to $4,000. Uh, the same for Amazon, they represent 41,000 workers. They will provide the same $4,000 annual if treatment is not available within a hundred miles.

And I don’t think that. There is I don’t, you know, I don’t think there’s any in Pennsylvania. That would be the closest nationwide insurance is a number one, another one. They say their plan already covers reproductive care, including abortion. They’re reviewing travel expenses and they’re monitoring the ongoing situation.

Dick’s [00:02:00] sporting goods is gonna do the 4,000 must be the magic number $4,000 in travel. Remember. Basements to the nearest legal location from any state that Dick’s operates in. So this is good news, Cleveland Cavaliers as well. They represent 2,500 employees that includes the monsters, the charge, and the rocket mortgage field house.

They are all doing it. So this is, this is heartening.

Chris: One of the people that I regularly hear from and correspond with, uh, in response to text messages and the podcast thing, send a note in this morning saying. But how meaningful is this? How many women are going to go to their employers and say, they want to go somewhere to have an abortion because it’s such a private issue.

And, and the other thing is. Is this a cost saving measure for the employers because let’s face it. If the women have children, the healthcare costs of pregnancy and childbirth and raising children are much greater than the cost of a plane ticket. Is this more of a symbolic [00:03:00] gesture of unity with the employees than, than anything that we think.

I, I,

Lisa: I think it’s more than symbolic. I mean, they’re actually gonna pay for, you know, employees to travel. I think that that’s a lot more than symbolic in my mind.

Chris: What’s interesting is that that historically, uh, abortion has been this very private matter and women who’ve had the procedure. Are not very public about it for obvious reasons, but in the days since the ruling, we’re starting to see people going on social media to say here, look, here’s my experience.

Almost like they’re trying to destigmatize it and normalize it so that everyone understands how these choices were made. And you know’ve read, went back and read a bunch of stories in the, in the sixties and the days leading up to Roe V. Wade, you didn’t see that this is kind of a new trend. And I wonder whether women.

We’ll be much more open with their employers saying, Hey, I need, I need to take advantage of this policy. What,

Lisa: what, well, and to [00:04:00] be fair, I mean, they’re protected by HIPAA, you know, they’re, you know, they’re employ that’s, you know, private information. So, you know, even if they did go to their employers, that information wouldn’t go any further than

Chris: that.

yeah, I guess. And it would only go to the HR. I mean, it wouldn’t be going right or shouldn’t be going to the managers of the company. It it’s a, it’s a fascinating turn of events. We are seeing unprecedented actions in the last four days and we’ll continue. I mean, there, there, you have people calling on Joe Biden to set up clinics on federal lands.

That mean that, that, who would’ve thought that would be a, a development. So interesting. Interesting times you’re listening to today in Ohio on another abortion front, we wondered Monday whether Cuyahoga county prosecutor, Mike O’Malley would prosecute abortion crimes. Courtney, we have our answer. What is it?

Courtney: Yeah, county prosecutor. Mike O’Malley signed a letter, um, that the, [00:05:00] that many other prosecutors from across the country signed saying that he would not be pursuing. You know, the criminalization of abortion, abortion related health services. So, you know, I, I believe the, the Columbus county prosecutor signed on, so it’s not like O male.

He went out on, on his own independent limb here, but he joined this movement of big city prosecutor saying, no, no, no, we will not be pursuing this.

Chris: Yeah, I, I mean, this sets up an interesting kind of showdown with the Ohio attorney general, who immediately on Friday, went to court to lift the. The hold on the heartbeat bill.

So we’re gonna check with Dave Yos today to say, Hey, if in the cities, prosecutors are not going after these crimes, what are you gonna do? Will he, you know, come in with his own prosecutors to handle it? Will he respect local dictates and local leaders to know their communities? [00:06:00] Uh, this just sets up a very interesting moment.

There are people that believe if it’s a law, you you’re required to enforce it, but let’s face it. Lots of, lots of decisions are made in prosecutors’ offices on whether to go forward with crimes. Uh,

Courtney: You know, and, and, and criminal discussion aside, I thought this was very interesting in our reporting on this.

So, so we talked to a professor of law at case Western reserve university who worked for the, a C L U and, and, and. This, this professor basically pointed out that just because O’Malley, isn’t going to prosecute these cases, like you said, we have to see what the ag does, but, but there can still be sanctions for abortion care providers and, and doctors can be brought before the state medical board for performing the services.

So this O’Malley’s decision is not like a fail safe here. There are other repercussions.

Chris: I, yeah, I read that, but then I thought, how would anybody know if, if the prosecutor isn’t [00:07:00] prosecuting and a doctor does the procedure with a patient because those records are private, how would anyone know to take it before the medical board?

I get it. There’s lots of, uh, computer surveillance that’s available today that wasn’t available back in the sixties, but again, setting. An unprecedented series of steps. We just have no idea where this is going to go. Uh, I was, I was actually surprised Michael O’Malley did that. I didn’t think he would make a statement about it and he did right away.

So there you go. You’re listening to today in Ohio. How is Lee? Winegart a candidate for Cuyahoga county executive, a Republican working to compel the Cuyahoga county council to follow the dictates of the county charter and not spend 66 million of their slush funds. Layla Lee Winegart pulled a big enough stunt when it’s a big enough stunt.

We cover it. Yeah. So

Leila: let me tell you the story yesterday. County council members. They [00:08:00] held this committee meeting to discuss that first round of American rescue plan proposals that were offered up by council members, son, Simon, Scott Toman, Mike Gallagher, each of the council council’s 11 members of course say get $6 million to spend on projects of their choosing.

And listeners will remember that. The most controversial of these proposals from the past couple weeks was Scott. Thumas $4 million investment in rebuilding the golf course clubhouse for parmas Ridgewood golf club. So at the committee meeting, do you think council members pressed these three with hard questions about why they chose these projects?

So for others, did, did they do the hard vetting the way council, president pro Jones promised that they would. Hell, why would they do that? And run the risk of having one of their colleagues stand in the way of their own slash funds spending down the line. That would be absolutely kooky duke. So these committee members happily voted in favor of these projects and then a parade of mayors from the [00:09:00] towns that were receiving the projects, testified about how happy they were about it.

But at some point. During the public comment portion of the meeting candidate Lee, WGAR got up and told them all that. Actually what they’re doing is in violation of the county charter. He pointed out that the charter expressly prohibits the distribution of funds at the order or direction of any individual member of the council.

And he said that. Ignoring that provision of the charter takes them all back to the pre charter days of county government when corruption was the order of the day in Kaga county. And they just sort of blew him off and continued on with their business. So then Winegart moved on to plan B. He went down to the office of prosecutor, Michael Malley, and the chief of.

Civil division, Dave Lambert. And he delivered this letter, basically asking them to Sue counsel on behalf of taxpayers, he, his letter pointed out the charter violation and said, these guys need to be restrained for misappropriating this money. WGAR basically [00:10:00] told him ma and Lambert, if you don’t act by July 6th, I.

We’ll be forced to file suit myself. So that’s where we sit at this moment.

Chris: You know, what’s surprising is, is that the council is acting illegally on two fronts. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, they came to the consensus. That they would spend this 66 million without ever talking about it in public. Right. And while council members can have individual conversations, the law is clear that you cannot do any kind of consensus building or polling of members to make a decision outside of the public purview.

So if Parnell Jones wanted to give each council member $6 million to spend, he had a duty to put that on the table. And, and ask them if they agreed with creating this program and they never did not once. Right. And that’s a sunshine law violation. On the other hand, the charter does very specifically say no council member [00:11:00] can direct funds.

And the charter authors have told us that this, what they’re doing here is specif. Why they put that into the charter. They did not want them to do what they’re doing right here. So Lee Weiner’s right. They are violating the charter in how they’re proceeding and no one cares except Lee Wegert. I mean, it I’m a little bit surprised.

We haven’t heard from Chris Roan. Who’s the Democrat running because these are the two guys. That wanna lead county government and the county government is completely outta control. The council is violating the law on multiple fronts. So good for Lee WGAR but where’s

Leila: Chris Roan. I know. I know. Right? I agree with you.

And, and yes, you’re, you’re totally right. You know, these guys have shown up with the proposals, these fully formed proposals to spend their. Their funds without ever having discussed them in an open meeting, they made the decision behind closed doors somewhere to carve out 66 million and divide that among the council members to spend, as they see fit, see fit without a [00:12:00] single public meeting about it.

But, you know, Courtney, I wanted to hear what you have to think. Where do you have to say about it? Cuz you’ve, you’ve talked to Eugene Kramer about this haven’t you? He’s one of the architects of the county charter and hasn’t he talked to you about his view of. His intentions were when he drafted that particular provision, do you think he specifically meant to outlaw this type of behavior?

Because counsel’s trying to argue that, you know, there’s a little bit of gray in how you interpret that,

Chris: you know? No, he wrote an email that said this is specifically what we were trying to stop. Yeah. So to protect against yeah. Yeah, no, he’s, he’s been very, very clear, you know, there’s also the point.

There’s a shameful state of the media in Cleveland, 10, 15 years ago. If we were doing these stories. All the other media would be, would be reporting it. You would see it on all the TV stations and the radio stations. That’s how bad the media has become in this town. We’re the only ones paying attention anymore.

Leila: Yeah. Yeah, it’s true. I, I, I’m really surprised that we, that [00:13:00] who, so who can at this point, stop them from violating the sunshine. What happens here?

Chris: well, I mean, you could have a taxpayer lawsuit. Michael Malley could do it. Dave, yo could do it. He puts out the sunshine manual every year. Uh, so, so they could all do it, but let’s face it.

Michael Malley was the number two to bill Mason when he was the prosecutor. And he’s now the county’s chief of staff. So. Will he take the steps to, to reign in his, his former boss and say, Hey guys, you can’t spend this money. You can’t do it this way. I don’t know. And,

Courtney: and you bring up Roan, where’s he at in this conversation?

I mean, you gotta imagine that. That he thinks he’s gonna be county executive shortly, and he’s gotta work with his council. So, so why throw down with your, your fellow democratic members that you gotta work with soon? It’s

Chris: because that’s what leaders do. Yeah. The, the council would have far more respect for him.

If he showed some spine. [00:14:00] Now, bowing down to this basically tells the council. You’ll be in charge when I’m county executive. I won’t, we have seen so little spine from Chris, Ron, a he just doesn’t stand up. Didn’t do it on the medical Mar where they wanna flush 46 million down the toilet on that thing. He hasn’t spoken up about any of this and Lee Winegart is taking official action.

I think that could matter in November. I. The odds are Chris Renee will win going away. And it seems like that’s what he’s counting on. I don’t have to say anything. I don’t have to do anything. I’m the democratic candidate I’ll win. But man, taking that for granted is a risky thing to do. It’s a shame in this political climate and shame on him for doing it.

Speak up. This is bad. What the county council is doing is flat out wrong. You know, I’m getting emails from people. Individual council members are telling. Plain dealers got it wrong. We’re not doing that. It’s like when they write to me, I say, yeah, actually they are doing that. Here’s the [00:15:00] truth. Right. And, and you know, so they’re being underhanded, trying to say, this is about the plain dealer in cleveland.com good stuff.

And we’ll have to see what happens next with Lee garden, Michael Malley, you’re listening to today in Ohio. maybe settling the civil lawsuits against him. Won’t get Deshaun Watson out of the news cycle after all. What is lawyer Tony Busby doing now? That is sure to bring more attention to Watson and Lisa, I ask this on the day of Watson’s hearing before the NFL.

On his ultimate discipline.

Lisa: Well, Busby’s work in the media for all it’s worth. He filed his first lawsuit against the NFL’s Houston Texans team. He said there’s overwhelming evidence that the Texans enabled Watson’s behavior and knew, and should have known his conduct among the things listed in the lawsuit.

Uh, Busby. That alleges that the team arranged for rooms at the Houstonian hotel under an alias for these massage therapy sessions, [00:16:00] he supplied non-disclosure agreements to Watson. He, uh, claims that the number of therapists involved in this is closer to a hundred. We’ve heard the number 66, only 24 filed lawsuits.

Um, the designated team massage therapist for the Texans genuine touch owner, Joni, hah. Said she complained back in June of 2020 that Watson was seeking out unqualified therapists on Instagram. Uh, there’s just a slight swipe against the Cleveland Browns in this lawsuit. He said that the Browns didn’t talk to any accusers or obtained police files when they were considering, you know, uh, acquiring Watson.

And he said that the NFL only spoke to one third of. In this case. So, and as you said, Watson’s disciplinary hearing begins today. The NFL is recommending an indefinite suspension of at least a year, but I be, I believe the player’s association is fighting

Chris: that. . Yeah, they’ll be fighting that. And ultimately it’ll go to the league officials to [00:17:00] make decisions.

So you, you covered Tony Busby. He’s just trying to get zeros on the checks by going after the Texans. Do you think that he’s putting the same kind of pressure on that? They’ll just settle to end this rather than go, go deep with him.

Lisa: That’s what it feels like to me. Okay. So he got, how many victories was it?

20 Victor. Or 20 settlements, you know, undisclosed. We’re never gonna know how much they got, you know, but, but why, I mean, if this sounds like criminal, to me, I mean, if he’s saying, you know, but he’s not taking it to a criminal court, he’s taking it to a civil court where he can get monetary damages.

Chris: Yeah.

And they might be able to get more from the Texans than they can get from an individual. I mean, it’s a very smart, legal strategy for his clients, but, but I , you gotta think they just want him to go away, but you you’ve said repeatedly that he excels at this kind of thing. This is what he does. Annie works the media really

Lisa: well.

And this keeps Watson in the [00:18:00] news. Of course it will be more of a Houston story, I think, than, than a Cleveland story at this point. But every day, you know, the TV newscasters at the top of their sports report, they gotta talk about the latest for Watson. So if, if his goal is to keep this in the media, he’s.

Doing a real

Chris: good job of it. Indeed. He is. And we’re playing right along. You are listening to today in Ohio, who has been chosen to be the next leader of the United way of greater Cleveland, replacing Augie Naly Courtney the United way. Has kind of fallen on hard times in recent years. It’s model of being the middle man and collecting money and distributing it is broken because people largely your age, uh, want to donate directly, but it’s still got a significant role to play.

So who is the new top person?

Courtney: Yeah, the new president and CEO, the, the first woman, president and CEO in the United ways, 122 year history. It’s gonna be Sharon Sobel, Jordan. Now [00:19:00] listeners probably know this name from around town. Um, Jordan Sobel, Jordan, where I first kind of encountered her name was she was, she was chief of staff to county, executive Armen Buddhi at the beginning of his time leading the county.

Um, she also served as law director and special counsel under former Cleveland mayor Mike White. But aside from those two gigs, Sol Jordan’s largely been in the nonprofit world. That’s kind of been her jam for, for most of her career. So, you know, the United ways board did the selection committee process, a national search landed on Sobel Jordan in part, because of that nonprofit experience, she was the CEO for the centers for family and children, a really large old Ohio nonprofit.

She was involved with digital C that’s aiming to bring digital equity to Cleveland. And more recently she served as the interim, um, leader of unify labs, which is

Chris: something we’ll be, we’ll be talking about in a [00:20:00] minute. Right. So before she went to the county and became chief of staff, She had a pretty great reputation.

Her work at the, the centers for families and children. She had merged to nonprofits with very different cultures and brought them together and was largely, very well thought of, but when she became Armen, Buddhist’s chief of staff, uh, she, she used her time there to go to Columbus and get a degree. And as soon as she got the degree, she was gone.

And so some people questioned how much she was doing there. What was, what was the feeling when she departed? Were people feeling like they didn’t get the full, the full char and Sobel Jordan? You know,

Lisa: I

Courtney: never heard like high praise for her time there. I started on the county beat a few months after she left though.

So, so full disclosure. I didn’t have personal experience there, but you know, in the story reporting this, we kind of talked about her accomplishments at the county, um, you know, early education we could argue that was kind. A [00:21:00] successful initiative that she shepherded there. But then also like she, she started up the county’s first innovation office, which really hasn’t yielded much to my knowledge.

So kind of, I guess Midling reviews.

Chris: She does have a background in the kind of things that the United way is going after, under, under the leadership of, uh, Paul Dolan, the board chair for like the past four years and Augie Napoli, who’s been there for, I think, six they’ve really tried to. Change their focus to dealing with poverty and being a thought leader in, in the battle on poverty.

And that, that is her background. So we’ll have to see how she does again. The United way funding model is completely broken. So what their future is remains a mystery you are listening to today in Ohio. Well, let’s talk about unified labs. It’s a secretive nonprofit that has had big ambitions and a lot of investments since it popped up in 2017.

But Layla, what [00:22:00] is it? And what does it do? Oh, what

Leila: doesn’t it do Chris so unify labs was originally called project unify. This was co-founded by Jim Hicky and Steven McKay. Uh, McKayla was, was really well known in Cleveland. For his prior success in the tech industry, cuz back in 2009, he co-founded explores, this was a program that streamlined spread out data in the healthcare industry and explores was, was then bought by IBM for this undisclosed amount.

So. At the beginning of, you know, 2017, we all heard these great things about unify and Michale was trumpeting this thing all over town, that it was going to solve poverty, using big data. That was the catchphrase that stuck with us. These, these past several years, they say that the goal is still to lift people out of poverty.

Through tech focused solutions. It seemed. He got a lot of high powered buy-in from leaders throughout town, they signed onto it. They [00:23:00] sat on his board. I invested investors, sank a bunch of money into this venture. But when we called Michaela at the start of this to talk about what exactly this was, he was a little bit squirrly about it.

He was like, oh, you know, just wait and see, it’s gonna be amazing. And we’re like, all right, well, whatever it wasn’t like there was public money being invested in it. We were just interested and Michale sort of seemed like. Elon was character flying to the moon on claims that he was gonna solve poverty using data.

So we were, we just kinda let it go. Right. But let me,

Chris: let me interrupt you though. Cuz we, we, at the time you were the, the lead reporter and Courtney was involved in a greater Cleveland, right. Which was our groundbreaking project to explore the effects of poverty on children. So. He started this up around the same time.

And we were pretty excited cuz he had the reputation, you called him and he put you off. He said, Hey, Hey right, come back in six months and I’ll tell you everything. And he

Leila: never did well. Yeah. Cuz we were looking for kind of a pivot point in our project. We were looking for something big to [00:24:00] invest our efforts into.

And we were like, well what’s this guy involved in? And yeah. So he did put us off and we’re like, okay. Fine, we’ll go a different direction. So, and then recently, Lucas, DPRI our, our stimulus watch reporter noticed that actually unify has received public money. In 2020, they had received a $215,000 loan from the paycheck protection program, which was part of the federal government’s first package of pandemic aid.

And it turns out that $183,000 of that loan had been forgiven according to ProPublica reporting. So now we needed to. You’re taking public money. What are you actually doing? So they told Lucas that after 30, first of all, it was very hard for Lucas to get these interviews. They really didn’t wanna talk to him.

They kept saying, they kind of gave him the same spiel. They said, you know what? Wait, six more weeks. We’ve got a huge announcement coming. And he it’s like the

Chris: it’s like the grand wizard at the wizard of Oz. Come back tomorrow. Yes . [00:25:00]

Leila: And he was like, you know, we’re not gonna wait. So you gotta tell us now.

And so they, they told him this was the big announcement that after 35,000 hours of research, During a data project that they dubbed knowledge product one, they arrived at some huge conclusions and here they are. So get ready for your mind to be blown by some facts you’ve never heard before here they are.

Not all economic growth is healthy. the knowledge economy can exacerbate inequality and. There is a misalignment of labor to open livable wage jobs. can you believe it? We never knew these things before. Well, thank you. Unify unify is proud to announce that to solve these problems. They’ve created flash hired.

It’s an app that promises to revolutionize the job hiring process in a way that makes the job search process more equitable to potential employees and to be better connect employers with workers whose talents meet their needs. That’s how they’re marketing it. The app [00:26:00] has more than. A hundred downloads on the Google place for, and a rating of about 3.3.

And, uh, they won’t tell, uh, they won’t tell Lucas how many people have gotten jobs through it or which employers are using it, but they’re saying everybody loves it. That’s anecdotally what they’re telling him. And, um, you know, I’m sure that they’re, you know, they’re not happy about how this story turned out and they’re not gonna be happy to hear this, but, you know, it’s just.

That’s how it shakes out. When you, when you take public money to, to pay your payroll, you have to, you have to explain what you’re doing for several years.

Chris: This thing has gone all sorts of sideways too. There was a period right before the pandemic, where they were going to move into the United way.

Building that the United way that we just talked about was going to aim at poverty and this was gonna be their partners. So they were gonna take up one or two floors in the United way offices. To really work together. And then that just went [00:27:00] away. Nobody can really explain what happened to that plan. It just dissolved into the, to the ether, probably had something to do with COVID, but they did.

I thought, and this timing could not have been coincidental. They did come out last week, two days before Lucas published this story to announce that they had raised four and a half million dollars for the, the jobs side of what they’re doing. Uh, I, I think they’re trying to catch some fire. The other thing that I think, um, Is interesting is who their board is, because like you said, originally, they had everybody, oh, they Jackson and arm Buddhi and Akron buttres and Paul do, I mean, basically anybody who was, anybody was on that board, but then when we asked them who’s on their board now, they said, ah, you have to wait till next week.

We’re gonna put it on our website. So it’s not even clear yet who who’s behind this thing. Right,

Leila: right, right. Yeah. And the website has been outdated for a long time and. Right. They’ve

Chris: very, people have been whispering about this thing [00:28:00] forever. So I’m glad Lucas did the story to at least shed some light on it and people care wanted to read it.

We, we sold some subscriptions to people who couldn’t read that story because it was for subscribers only, and they wanted to check it out on cleveland.com. If you’re a subscriber you’re listening to today in Ohio, let’s rush through one more. Lisa, this might be the first in the gerrymandering battle.

Did secretary of state Frank LaRose. Actually obey the direction from the Ohio Supreme court regarding some ballots. And what did he say in his blistering statement about the court? Yes,

Lisa: he grudgingly, uh, It issued an order on Sunday to five counties, Franklin Montgomery, licking Perry, and Fairfield counties.

To say that they must accept the petitions of six democratic candidates who sued to try and get on the ballot. They have to certify the candidates if qualified and amend the ballots. If necessary a really tight deadline for this candidate’s certification has to be done by nine o’clock on [00:29:00] Thursday, petition protests and challenges by noon, Friday.

First and hearings and rulings must be done by nine o’clock on July 5th. And he has to supply supplemental ballots to affected military and overseas voters. LaRose, not happy with this. He says, quote, this ignores the rule of law and sets a terrible precedent and is a disservice to Ohio voters, especially the military.

Chris: Actually it follows the rule of law. Thank you. The Supreme court are the ones that are following the rule of law. He was using his position for politics to reduce the chances Democrats can win and we’re not having any, I, uh, And really kind of appalled at his behavior over the last year, with regard to the gerrymandering case, the secretary of state should have been the one defending everybody.

Right. Right. And it took the Supreme court to force him to do his job. But,

Lisa: you know, I, as I said, in our editorial board meeting yesterday, this should have been a unanimous decision by the Ohio Supreme court, but [00:30:00] it was still a four, three split. So, you know, three justices ignored the rule of law let’s guess who they were.

Chris: well, one of ‘em is seeking to be the chief justice will be, will be very dangerous. And one is the governor’s son who we’ve talked all year about how he didn’t recuse himself from his father’s case. So not surprising that they wouldn’t follow the rule of law it’s today in Ohio, that does it for a Tuesday discussion, hot stuff.

We didn’t get to everything, come back tomorrow to see what we missed. Thanks, Lisa. Thanks Courtney. Thanks Layla. Thank you for listening.

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